So, at the moment (at least in the United States) there's a TV commercial with Jennifer Coolidge walking through a grocery store being her delightfully unhinged, confused, but good-hearted self as she talks to her body guard. He gently offers corrections about what his role is and what his role isn't. The closing lines:
"Then what do YOU protect me from?"
"Mostly yourself."
That's my current thought, feeling, and experience of being saved. Saved from what? Mostly myself.
I realize I have a very particular, mystical relationship to God because I grew up Quaker. Also, we don't do the sacraments. But I did sing in a choir for a bunch of years that had a repertoire that was entirely spirituals and gospel. And I always felt like channeling Spirit while singing that music was the same process as standing up to give vocal ministry in Silent Meeting, just with musical accompaniment. So, I would get really into it, and periodically someone would note my enthusiasm and ask me if I'd been saved. My simple response, which I hope was not taken as being flippant because that wasn't my intention, was "God never lost me."
Yes. I have that dualistic fire in me to some degree as well. Especially in this time of call out culture (cancel culture) during these apocalyptic revelations of late regarding that history and part of my life.
But like you I am moving into accepting the sweetness of it as well as the sours.
The families , the gospel music where I first learned how to sing harmony, the dinners, the laughter, etc there were moments of grace. Big ones.
And of course the seeds of Christ were planted in that time as well. All the bad stuff that came with it couldn’t thwart that from growing.
I find myself turning into a universalist when it comes
To the issue of salvation. I don’t believe god is going to pop out from behind door number 7 at the end of all things saying, “Surprise I’m a Methodist!”
I think k God loves us with reckless abandon. The thought of that kind of love saves me again and again and again and...
I was saved at my baptism when I was sealed by the Holy Spirit and marked with the Cross of Christ forever. Problem is I did not know that until well into adulthood, after I left the Catholic Church for my utter failure to live up to the standard of “works” that I was taught was the key to my salvation.
Fortunately I heard the actual Good News and realized that it was never about works, and finally understood what God has been telling all of us from the beginning. So, I guess I was “saved” when I realized I had been so all along.
The American church experience, based more than ever on the example of good old Constantine, has always been a zero sum game. It is especially now that the American church is doubling down on its political alignment. This conservative sway has always been absolute; either you are or you aren’t. You go to church or you don’t. You read the Bible or you don’t. You’re saved or you’re not. But now Christianity is starting to wake up to the sticky trap of ritual and seek the sweet taste of substance. What Would Jesus Do can be subjective; What Did Jesus Say less so. If the church would drop the fear factor and embrace empathy in grace it would go a long way. Hopefully it’s a new reformation.
My son was frequently accosted in the halls of his high school by groups from an evangelical student club who went around asking people if they had “accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.” He tried many responses to try to get them to leave him alone, and finally found one that worked: “I’m baptized. He waltzed right in and took over.” They went away scratching their heads.
SAVED by the Grace of God at my first meeting. The name of the meeting is actually Saved By Grace. All I had to do is say: My name is Kat, and I'm an alcoholic. The only thing I could think about for the rest of the meeting was: I wonder which one of these bitches is Grace!
I was just having this discussion with someone yesterday. We have come to the conclusion that we are not supposed to be saved FROM, but what are we saved TO. In other words, why would it matter to God and what do I have to offer the world on God's behalf because of being "saved".
I freely admit I am a Methodist pastor, love thinking out of the box that Christianity has built, and I know this is not a usual topic of conversation except if you are paid to be some kind of "official Christian".😜
Thank you Nadia for words that describe the experience of "going forward to be saved." I was repeatedly "saved" as a child....I think the most recent was probably at a Billy Graham meeting when I was about 17 yrs. old. I'm 87 yrs. old now so that one must of took 'cause I'm still saved from all that scary stuff about frying in hell, duelist thinking, fear of my mother disappearing and me being "left behind." The really terrifying one was going to sleep because I was reminded that the Holy Bible said that "Two will be sleeping in bed; one will be taken and the other left." I sure knew I'd be left. I remember being so scared that maybe I hadn't been "saved" after all so I'd have to "go forward to the alter" again and again. I was baptized 3 times because different churches I'd go to didn't think the other one was quite right so I'd have to be dunked again. I'm dam'd clean now, Nadia. And "thanks be to God" I've left all that behind and joined the ranks or recovering evangelical. I don't hate those folks now. I really feel sad for them and my dear mother for buying into all that. I love the old gospel hymns, despite the awful lyrics. I love Sacred Harp singing even more. I'm not clear on how to access that. Maybe you'd help me out there? And I love you "all ta crazy!" ROTB has become my lifeline for now.
1. Again, thank you Nadia for creating this loving and welcoming place. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
2. I am a subscriber...and I seem to comment a lot...let me know if there are extra charges. (-:)
3. I grew up Catholic.
4. Nadia, your comment clarified for me that my anger toward the Catholic Church says a lot more about me than it says about the Catholic Church.
5. I am learning to be more compassionate to myself. I realize I can't do that without becoming more compassionate to that, that I would be angry at.
6. Non-duality. There need be no intermediary between me and the infinite. No, Tom, that is not non-duality. Non-duality is "The infinite and I am one."
7. "The portals to presence are infinite in number" (Thank you Eckhart Tolle) - There are delightfully so many beliefs and pathways revealed in your writings and these comments; and there is room for all of them in the infinite. How delightful.
I love your response to when we're you saved. Before we were born, God knew us!! And we work out our salvation daily. (can't remember which scripture that is)
The kingdom of God is here now, in our past, and future. It is in us
Another new beginning, a continuing of the covenant that is made with Gods people, faith ,hope, love & beauty with forgiveness when we are not mindful and misstep.
So many memories! As an introvert who grew up in a Southern Baptist church, I still cringe at the exhortations to evangelize. Years after I walked away from that church, an experience on a plane probably added to the years it took for me to step into different religious waters. A bubbly female college student was on the aisle, I was at the window, and I had an intuition to get my book out. A nice man came to sit in the middle, and I felt relief. Because as soon as she could, the college student started on the man with a familiar script: Do you know if you’re going to heaven? And I scrunched deeper into my book and turned more toward the window. I knew both what was coming next and that I was consciously abandoning the man to the barrage about how to be “saved.” Silently I begged the man not to answer anything about being good enough, but he did, and the trap was sprung. I felt badly for the man, and consoled myself with that it was only a 90 minute flight. Lo these many years later, I can also feel some compassion for the student, doing what she had been taught. But the whole hell enterprise, as a vehicle to scare and control people, still makes me angry.
I guess I have more work to do to remember the good along with the bad.
So, at the moment (at least in the United States) there's a TV commercial with Jennifer Coolidge walking through a grocery store being her delightfully unhinged, confused, but good-hearted self as she talks to her body guard. He gently offers corrections about what his role is and what his role isn't. The closing lines:
"Then what do YOU protect me from?"
"Mostly yourself."
That's my current thought, feeling, and experience of being saved. Saved from what? Mostly myself.
(The commercial referenced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuqgrMJD-4Y)
I realize I have a very particular, mystical relationship to God because I grew up Quaker. Also, we don't do the sacraments. But I did sing in a choir for a bunch of years that had a repertoire that was entirely spirituals and gospel. And I always felt like channeling Spirit while singing that music was the same process as standing up to give vocal ministry in Silent Meeting, just with musical accompaniment. So, I would get really into it, and periodically someone would note my enthusiasm and ask me if I'd been saved. My simple response, which I hope was not taken as being flippant because that wasn't my intention, was "God never lost me."
Yes. I have that dualistic fire in me to some degree as well. Especially in this time of call out culture (cancel culture) during these apocalyptic revelations of late regarding that history and part of my life.
But like you I am moving into accepting the sweetness of it as well as the sours.
The families , the gospel music where I first learned how to sing harmony, the dinners, the laughter, etc there were moments of grace. Big ones.
And of course the seeds of Christ were planted in that time as well. All the bad stuff that came with it couldn’t thwart that from growing.
I find myself turning into a universalist when it comes
To the issue of salvation. I don’t believe god is going to pop out from behind door number 7 at the end of all things saying, “Surprise I’m a Methodist!”
I think k God loves us with reckless abandon. The thought of that kind of love saves me again and again and again and...
I am being saved from myself over and over and over again.
I was saved at my baptism when I was sealed by the Holy Spirit and marked with the Cross of Christ forever. Problem is I did not know that until well into adulthood, after I left the Catholic Church for my utter failure to live up to the standard of “works” that I was taught was the key to my salvation.
Fortunately I heard the actual Good News and realized that it was never about works, and finally understood what God has been telling all of us from the beginning. So, I guess I was “saved” when I realized I had been so all along.
The American church experience, based more than ever on the example of good old Constantine, has always been a zero sum game. It is especially now that the American church is doubling down on its political alignment. This conservative sway has always been absolute; either you are or you aren’t. You go to church or you don’t. You read the Bible or you don’t. You’re saved or you’re not. But now Christianity is starting to wake up to the sticky trap of ritual and seek the sweet taste of substance. What Would Jesus Do can be subjective; What Did Jesus Say less so. If the church would drop the fear factor and embrace empathy in grace it would go a long way. Hopefully it’s a new reformation.
My son was frequently accosted in the halls of his high school by groups from an evangelical student club who went around asking people if they had “accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.” He tried many responses to try to get them to leave him alone, and finally found one that worked: “I’m baptized. He waltzed right in and took over.” They went away scratching their heads.
Dear Nadia,
SAVED by the Grace of God at my first meeting. The name of the meeting is actually Saved By Grace. All I had to do is say: My name is Kat, and I'm an alcoholic. The only thing I could think about for the rest of the meeting was: I wonder which one of these bitches is Grace!
Love,
Kat
I was just having this discussion with someone yesterday. We have come to the conclusion that we are not supposed to be saved FROM, but what are we saved TO. In other words, why would it matter to God and what do I have to offer the world on God's behalf because of being "saved".
I freely admit I am a Methodist pastor, love thinking out of the box that Christianity has built, and I know this is not a usual topic of conversation except if you are paid to be some kind of "official Christian".😜
Thank you Nadia for words that describe the experience of "going forward to be saved." I was repeatedly "saved" as a child....I think the most recent was probably at a Billy Graham meeting when I was about 17 yrs. old. I'm 87 yrs. old now so that one must of took 'cause I'm still saved from all that scary stuff about frying in hell, duelist thinking, fear of my mother disappearing and me being "left behind." The really terrifying one was going to sleep because I was reminded that the Holy Bible said that "Two will be sleeping in bed; one will be taken and the other left." I sure knew I'd be left. I remember being so scared that maybe I hadn't been "saved" after all so I'd have to "go forward to the alter" again and again. I was baptized 3 times because different churches I'd go to didn't think the other one was quite right so I'd have to be dunked again. I'm dam'd clean now, Nadia. And "thanks be to God" I've left all that behind and joined the ranks or recovering evangelical. I don't hate those folks now. I really feel sad for them and my dear mother for buying into all that. I love the old gospel hymns, despite the awful lyrics. I love Sacred Harp singing even more. I'm not clear on how to access that. Maybe you'd help me out there? And I love you "all ta crazy!" ROTB has become my lifeline for now.
1. Again, thank you Nadia for creating this loving and welcoming place. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
2. I am a subscriber...and I seem to comment a lot...let me know if there are extra charges. (-:)
3. I grew up Catholic.
4. Nadia, your comment clarified for me that my anger toward the Catholic Church says a lot more about me than it says about the Catholic Church.
5. I am learning to be more compassionate to myself. I realize I can't do that without becoming more compassionate to that, that I would be angry at.
6. Non-duality. There need be no intermediary between me and the infinite. No, Tom, that is not non-duality. Non-duality is "The infinite and I am one."
7. "The portals to presence are infinite in number" (Thank you Eckhart Tolle) - There are delightfully so many beliefs and pathways revealed in your writings and these comments; and there is room for all of them in the infinite. How delightful.
I love your response to when we're you saved. Before we were born, God knew us!! And we work out our salvation daily. (can't remember which scripture that is)
The kingdom of God is here now, in our past, and future. It is in us
Love it. Wholeness. Yes. I can really go with that.
Another new beginning, a continuing of the covenant that is made with Gods people, faith ,hope, love & beauty with forgiveness when we are not mindful and misstep.
The phrase that I struggle with is "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior." I prefer to share him with others, not keep him for my very own...
So many memories! As an introvert who grew up in a Southern Baptist church, I still cringe at the exhortations to evangelize. Years after I walked away from that church, an experience on a plane probably added to the years it took for me to step into different religious waters. A bubbly female college student was on the aisle, I was at the window, and I had an intuition to get my book out. A nice man came to sit in the middle, and I felt relief. Because as soon as she could, the college student started on the man with a familiar script: Do you know if you’re going to heaven? And I scrunched deeper into my book and turned more toward the window. I knew both what was coming next and that I was consciously abandoning the man to the barrage about how to be “saved.” Silently I begged the man not to answer anything about being good enough, but he did, and the trap was sprung. I felt badly for the man, and consoled myself with that it was only a 90 minute flight. Lo these many years later, I can also feel some compassion for the student, doing what she had been taught. But the whole hell enterprise, as a vehicle to scare and control people, still makes me angry.
I guess I have more work to do to remember the good along with the bad.