As I write this, I have a YouTube livestream open and playing in the background, listening to the singing in the chapel at Asbury University in Kentucky - where a regular chapel service that started 12 days ago has not yet ended.
Thank you SO MUCH for this, Nadia. It made me realize just how exhausted I am from the snark and cynicism, the quickness to condemn and not bless, the leap to judgment before curiosity. I participate in all of this myself, often for what I consider good and important reasons. But damn, I’m tired. I want to sing and be open-hearted, too.
Debie Thomas and Nadia Bolz-Weber, the two people who most informed and shaped my preaching in the last 4 years of my ministry, here in the same thread! My mind is blown, my heart is full!
As long as you are both here: thank you thank you thank you.
Exhausted from the snark and cynicism is a great way to put it. Really are the perfect words to how I've been feeling for... well, for a long while now. We are called to be joyful and full of hope, but we just can't help ourselves. Thanks for putting into words what I think a lot of people are feeling.
THANK YOU!! I have been struggling as well. Nadia captured my struggle so very well!! From my "hellfire and damnation" childhood in the 50's/60's it was "those" people who stole my childhood joy. They taught me to sing, "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world" and then made sure this little child knew she would NEVER be good enough to be loved.
About 5/6 years ago, I stumbled across this out loud, brash, vulnerable, tattoo covered female voice who proclaimed, "you were NEVER not good enough!" I've been digging deeper ever since. I now understand god has been with me my whole life, in spite of my naming the "Universe" as my guide as my life unfolded in wonderful ways. Thank you Nadia for capturing my current cynicism perfectly " ...an aversion to things that feel like performance in church, my own cynicism and need to feel in control, and memories of church camp and the spiritual manipulation of being whipped into an emotional state when I was young, away from home, sleep deprived and in need of acceptance."
I, too, continue to simply pay attention. I hold it a great deal of faith and hope in our younger generations. It is well past time for my generation of boomers to step aside and encourage young folks to lead us to love more and better!!
Feb 19, 2023·edited Feb 19, 2023Liked by Nadia Bolz-Weber
Perfect, Nadia! I too am watching the livestream of #AsburyRevival -- or, awakening; or, outpouring -- whatever the label the pundits are placing on the events. I have personally experienced 'revival' prayer gatherings like these for more than 30 years in active ministry as a small town charismatic worship leader. #BrownsvilleRevival Pensacola FL during the late 1990s swept the Gulf Coast and then attracted onlookers, worshippers, and charlatans from around world. It shook my world then; and I'll never be the same again. In that nationally recognized revival, those who came out unscathed by the charlatans, were eternally changed for the Good. Many, like me, have move forward in our theology of 'revival' and gatherings such as what we are witnessing at Asbury today.
Ultimately, the leaders who are stewarding the gatherings in and around Wilmore KY, will determine the forward progression and fruitfulness, or not, of this spiritual phenomenon. I bless these precious students who are leading worship, who are sharing testimonies, who are pleading from deep within their souls for a Better way. I will continue to watch, listen, pray, and long for a truly supernatural revival of human souls, hot with compassion and generosity towards one another, towards the Way of Love, and towards the Heart of the Holy One.
It’s hard to just watch when I long for an open and accepting congregation. Too many strikes and blows from the people in the community judging this newcomer and her disabled adult daughter.
Accepting and welcoming congregations do exist. I promise. We searched for a full year after relocating to BHM from the Gulf Coast. As a lifelong evangelical Baptist charismatic, having endured decades of church scandals and toxicity, we were very very skeptical and slow to connect anywhere. Grateful for the pastors and congregations here who have lovingly welcomed and ministered to us in our grief. 🕊
Stop! You don’t know my heart or my journey. The ugliness that my daughter and I have experienced over and over has left scars - for my son, too, who has witnessed the ugliness. I’m happy for you as a white older male. You’ll always find a place in the church you choose. That doesn’t ring true for all of us. Step back and stop evangelizing.
Teri, my apology. My intent was to encourage. I’m so sorry for that you and your children have experienced. I pray that healing comes for you, in whatever way that you seek. Please forgive my presumptive approach. 🕊
I don’t seek your prayers! Really! Go out and make a difference in your community. I live my faith in community outside the church building...“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you.
A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.””
My daughter lives in KY and has gone to the revival. She has had similar struggles with the manipulation of performative church - this is not that. Pure. Spontaneous.
Right before reading your post I read one about how our young people are depressed and suicidal, brought on by society’s ills. Lots of prescriptions for remedy but none of them included the need for a revival of hope in our souls.
Your text supports my latest thought: is not the greatest gift of god to us his peace? I for a very long time focussed on the love commandments and my failure in having sufficient compassion for everyone. Today after a hike I just asked him for peace - no more. No enlightning, no extacy no warm feeling in the bosom or what have you. I just realized: my soul needs rest. and this rest is peace which is his peace. My it be with You, Nadia, and all of us.
Nadia, thank you. I graduated from Asbury in 1968 with a distaste for its revivalism, narrow-mindedness, and pressure for performative piety. But, you and others who have been commenting on this ongoing event have caused me to take a second look. Perhaps looking at this through the lens of longing will help me be more forgiving of what I felt was wrong with Asbury and more grateful for what was right. Who am I to tell the Holy Spirit where and how to move.
"I swear that social media should just be called “Joy Stealers Anonymous”...can we just absorb something with an open-hearted awe and curiosity for one fucking minute?"
I came, kicking and screaming, into Faith in my third year of college. I'd never heard anything about anything like Faith growing up. When I wanted to share this new discovery with my parents, they told me that they didn't want to hear a word about it.
They had run from Faith. Probably had something to do with my two grandmothers.
I think I have always been people-averse. The worst part about Faith, for me, has been that it includes strangers. For the last 50 years [next week], for me, Faith has been about music and preaching. Mostly music. A lot of boring preaching. I apparently live on the Circadian Rhythm of my Norwegian ancestors. 10 hours off of Pacific time. I 'slept', in the front rows of churches, during a lot of those 50 years. Since we left our Evangelical Lutheran [Missouri] congregation when it was becoming Anger Management Sunday, I haven't really missed the people. We now do Sunday with our middle kid and his family--including two relatively new grandsons and Secular Jews.
In years passed, we gave up time with adult children for Church. Unfortunate consequences.
This morning we sang two, count them, two Wesleyan hymns at high Anglican Christ Church, West Didsbury, Manchester, UK. This evening we sang worship songs at evangelical charismatic Anglican Emmanuel, Didsbury Village, Manchester, UK. I love both musical forms. I love both churches. More than anything I am grateful to be able to worship with these communities.
Nadia - you’d written one phrase that really struck me: “I long to be un-self-conscious in my devotion to God.”
I grew up in liturgy, and used to thing anything but was heresy. But now I find it to be monotonously disdainful. I long for depth of conversation about life experiences and their impacts on faith journeys.
So I struggle with this Asbury Revival. Yes, maybe it is just young people throwing out all of the theological BS and just being with and in God. However as you’d also said, “this Gen Xer usually recoils from anything that smacks of sap.” I wonder if it’s just feel good self-indulgence. I wonder if it’s just here in the now and not forever. Why can’t I just be happy for them?
I’m troubled, because for whatever reason conventional worship has become a hurdle in my faith life. Is it okay if something like this doesn’t float everyone’s boat?
Of course it's ok. I'm kind of asking - is it ok that it floats mine?
It's such a particular feeling of alienation when we find ourselves no longer engaged in or responding to the kind of worship we used to. It brings up a lot.
“It's such a particular feeling of alienation when we find ourselves no longer engaged in or responding to the kind of worship we used to.” Nadia, I so relate to this!
Feb 19, 2023·edited Feb 19, 2023Liked by Nadia Bolz-Weber
I returned to church about ten months ago after swearing off forever ("with and without a solemn oath"). I was perfectly content for a few years to not be in church. Relieved, in fact. But after a while, on the rare occasions I spoke of my non-churched status, I would say, "But I sure miss communion." And over time I began to long for it in just the way you describe in your essay. So I went back. I ended up in a UCC congregation in the suburbs of Portland Oregon. And all the things that annoyed me about church are still there, and they still do.
But I get to have communion, in both literal and figurative senses. And it changes me. Now I feel a deep longing to lay down my suspicion, and God knows where THAT'S going to take me. I don't even know if I've got the guts to find out.
I hear ya on that Gen-X aversion to sap! Speaking of...maybe you’re listening to the wrong kind of worship music. Try Marvin Sapp, Kirk Franklin or even Lecrae. Totally different groove!
I believe that many of us sing to God from our soul, from his Holy Spirit within us. I believe that when we reach him in heaven, our souls and our songs will join the masses who praise God for eternity. I hope to hear voices like those of Stevie Wonder, Alanis Morissete and Andrea Bocelli. When I listen to them sing about faith I feel a connection to heaven. 🙌🏼
I confess I envy their experience to some extent. I was in a church with this kind of thing for years and never really “felt” it, even though I participated. I hope there is something good that comes from it that lasts for them. I’m intrigued by a video posted by a pastor who went to see this, in which he said that during all this the students were protecting LGBTQ+ students and having conversations with professors and other about addressing racism and other issues. It would be amazing and heartening if this brings about real institutional change.
I love what you have given us here. I'm reading Richard Rohr yhese days - about deconstruction and reconstruction - and find it both humbling and helpful along with your words of.wisdom.
Even so, I'm really concerned with your choice of words in the first few sentences - "open hearted". I'm just not sure that's what's going on here.
Asbury is a leading theological voice in the exclusion of gay/lesbian/trans/bi/queer relationships and leadership in the United Methodist Church. This is most hurtful to me as an ordained Deacon in The UMC and as the mother of a queer child. I can hardly celebrate this revival knowing the mentality of the leadership on the Asbury campus. How can I?
Unless there is a surge of young faithfuls who are "opening their hearts" to all of God's creation and humanity, I'm not sure it matters what else their hearts are open to. This hurts to say and think.
But, Nadia, how can we say we love a God we can't see while hating brothers and sisters we do see? My hope is that something is happening in these young people that will stir and change the hearts of the ones who have the power there. Something that will shake the foundations of judmentalism, piousness and the idolatry of orthodoxy that has dominated here for quite some time... and masquerades as holy.
Your flag on the hill image is saving me from even worse cynicism. (are there varying degrees?) But I can't just sit here and "feel" the "spirit" knowing the harm they cause to others outside the bubble.
I posted some pretty intense thoughts a few days ago, as a United Methodist Minister in the midst of a real church split nightmare that has about made me leave ministry. The best thing I come away with in your reflections is your deep.compassion for.our total human condition and that damn white flag on the hill. I'm gonna need that image to make it with church religion. Period.
Rev. Meg, I’m a former ELCA minister who recently gave up that career mainly because many church members don’t agree with the denomination’s embrace of openly LGBTQ+ people as members, pastors and bishops, its denunciation of white supremacy and support for immigrants, etc. I was also deeply disappointed by the silence of those who do agree, and oppose the Christian nationalism that is gaining ground but are afraid of causing conflict or losing members.
I too was ordained a United Methodist pastor, a graduate of both Asbury institutions. I too am disappointed with so many of the stances of the institutions. I retired early after what many would call successful pastoral ministries. The incubation of some of the worst kinds of behaviors and dispositions seemed to be in the pews feeding the very cultural attitudes leaving so many feeling alone and disregarded pandering a petty god bent on petty followers. I am acquainted with people who were part of the so called first revival on the Asbury Campus. Let's just say any skepticism around said environments are well warranted. I will end by saying I had some truly remarkable and life transforming mentors and teachers at both institutions who would decry their stance on so many issues today.
Thank you SO MUCH for this, Nadia. It made me realize just how exhausted I am from the snark and cynicism, the quickness to condemn and not bless, the leap to judgment before curiosity. I participate in all of this myself, often for what I consider good and important reasons. But damn, I’m tired. I want to sing and be open-hearted, too.
Debie Thomas and Nadia Bolz-Weber, the two people who most informed and shaped my preaching in the last 4 years of my ministry, here in the same thread! My mind is blown, my heart is full!
As long as you are both here: thank you thank you thank you.
Yes, sister! Me, too. Blessings. Thanking God for Nadia and her open spirit!
Exhausted from the snark and cynicism is a great way to put it. Really are the perfect words to how I've been feeling for... well, for a long while now. We are called to be joyful and full of hope, but we just can't help ourselves. Thanks for putting into words what I think a lot of people are feeling.
THANK YOU!! I have been struggling as well. Nadia captured my struggle so very well!! From my "hellfire and damnation" childhood in the 50's/60's it was "those" people who stole my childhood joy. They taught me to sing, "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world" and then made sure this little child knew she would NEVER be good enough to be loved.
About 5/6 years ago, I stumbled across this out loud, brash, vulnerable, tattoo covered female voice who proclaimed, "you were NEVER not good enough!" I've been digging deeper ever since. I now understand god has been with me my whole life, in spite of my naming the "Universe" as my guide as my life unfolded in wonderful ways. Thank you Nadia for capturing my current cynicism perfectly " ...an aversion to things that feel like performance in church, my own cynicism and need to feel in control, and memories of church camp and the spiritual manipulation of being whipped into an emotional state when I was young, away from home, sleep deprived and in need of acceptance."
I, too, continue to simply pay attention. I hold it a great deal of faith and hope in our younger generations. It is well past time for my generation of boomers to step aside and encourage young folks to lead us to love more and better!!
Perfect, Nadia! I too am watching the livestream of #AsburyRevival -- or, awakening; or, outpouring -- whatever the label the pundits are placing on the events. I have personally experienced 'revival' prayer gatherings like these for more than 30 years in active ministry as a small town charismatic worship leader. #BrownsvilleRevival Pensacola FL during the late 1990s swept the Gulf Coast and then attracted onlookers, worshippers, and charlatans from around world. It shook my world then; and I'll never be the same again. In that nationally recognized revival, those who came out unscathed by the charlatans, were eternally changed for the Good. Many, like me, have move forward in our theology of 'revival' and gatherings such as what we are witnessing at Asbury today.
Ultimately, the leaders who are stewarding the gatherings in and around Wilmore KY, will determine the forward progression and fruitfulness, or not, of this spiritual phenomenon. I bless these precious students who are leading worship, who are sharing testimonies, who are pleading from deep within their souls for a Better way. I will continue to watch, listen, pray, and long for a truly supernatural revival of human souls, hot with compassion and generosity towards one another, towards the Way of Love, and towards the Heart of the Holy One.
It’s hard to just watch when I long for an open and accepting congregation. Too many strikes and blows from the people in the community judging this newcomer and her disabled adult daughter.
Accepting and welcoming congregations do exist. I promise. We searched for a full year after relocating to BHM from the Gulf Coast. As a lifelong evangelical Baptist charismatic, having endured decades of church scandals and toxicity, we were very very skeptical and slow to connect anywhere. Grateful for the pastors and congregations here who have lovingly welcomed and ministered to us in our grief. 🕊
Stop! You don’t know my heart or my journey. The ugliness that my daughter and I have experienced over and over has left scars - for my son, too, who has witnessed the ugliness. I’m happy for you as a white older male. You’ll always find a place in the church you choose. That doesn’t ring true for all of us. Step back and stop evangelizing.
Teri, my apology. My intent was to encourage. I’m so sorry for that you and your children have experienced. I pray that healing comes for you, in whatever way that you seek. Please forgive my presumptive approach. 🕊
I don’t seek your prayers! Really! Go out and make a difference in your community. I live my faith in community outside the church building...“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you.
A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.””
Luke 6:37-38 NIV
*sorry for what ... (( typo ))
Agreed. Thank you 🕊💜
My daughter lives in KY and has gone to the revival. She has had similar struggles with the manipulation of performative church - this is not that. Pure. Spontaneous.
Right before reading your post I read one about how our young people are depressed and suicidal, brought on by society’s ills. Lots of prescriptions for remedy but none of them included the need for a revival of hope in our souls.
Your text supports my latest thought: is not the greatest gift of god to us his peace? I for a very long time focussed on the love commandments and my failure in having sufficient compassion for everyone. Today after a hike I just asked him for peace - no more. No enlightning, no extacy no warm feeling in the bosom or what have you. I just realized: my soul needs rest. and this rest is peace which is his peace. My it be with You, Nadia, and all of us.
Thank you! This is the best post I've read about Ashbury.
Nadia, thank you. I graduated from Asbury in 1968 with a distaste for its revivalism, narrow-mindedness, and pressure for performative piety. But, you and others who have been commenting on this ongoing event have caused me to take a second look. Perhaps looking at this through the lens of longing will help me be more forgiving of what I felt was wrong with Asbury and more grateful for what was right. Who am I to tell the Holy Spirit where and how to move.
I get that we all, white women anyway, have imposter syndrome, but one thing you need NEVER worry about is your fecundity as a writer.
"I swear that social media should just be called “Joy Stealers Anonymous”...can we just absorb something with an open-hearted awe and curiosity for one fucking minute?"
I came, kicking and screaming, into Faith in my third year of college. I'd never heard anything about anything like Faith growing up. When I wanted to share this new discovery with my parents, they told me that they didn't want to hear a word about it.
They had run from Faith. Probably had something to do with my two grandmothers.
I think I have always been people-averse. The worst part about Faith, for me, has been that it includes strangers. For the last 50 years [next week], for me, Faith has been about music and preaching. Mostly music. A lot of boring preaching. I apparently live on the Circadian Rhythm of my Norwegian ancestors. 10 hours off of Pacific time. I 'slept', in the front rows of churches, during a lot of those 50 years. Since we left our Evangelical Lutheran [Missouri] congregation when it was becoming Anger Management Sunday, I haven't really missed the people. We now do Sunday with our middle kid and his family--including two relatively new grandsons and Secular Jews.
In years passed, we gave up time with adult children for Church. Unfortunate consequences.
Thank you, Nadia.
This morning we sang two, count them, two Wesleyan hymns at high Anglican Christ Church, West Didsbury, Manchester, UK. This evening we sang worship songs at evangelical charismatic Anglican Emmanuel, Didsbury Village, Manchester, UK. I love both musical forms. I love both churches. More than anything I am grateful to be able to worship with these communities.
Nadia - you’d written one phrase that really struck me: “I long to be un-self-conscious in my devotion to God.”
I grew up in liturgy, and used to thing anything but was heresy. But now I find it to be monotonously disdainful. I long for depth of conversation about life experiences and their impacts on faith journeys.
So I struggle with this Asbury Revival. Yes, maybe it is just young people throwing out all of the theological BS and just being with and in God. However as you’d also said, “this Gen Xer usually recoils from anything that smacks of sap.” I wonder if it’s just feel good self-indulgence. I wonder if it’s just here in the now and not forever. Why can’t I just be happy for them?
I’m troubled, because for whatever reason conventional worship has become a hurdle in my faith life. Is it okay if something like this doesn’t float everyone’s boat?
Of course it's ok. I'm kind of asking - is it ok that it floats mine?
It's such a particular feeling of alienation when we find ourselves no longer engaged in or responding to the kind of worship we used to. It brings up a lot.
“It's such a particular feeling of alienation when we find ourselves no longer engaged in or responding to the kind of worship we used to.” Nadia, I so relate to this!
I returned to church about ten months ago after swearing off forever ("with and without a solemn oath"). I was perfectly content for a few years to not be in church. Relieved, in fact. But after a while, on the rare occasions I spoke of my non-churched status, I would say, "But I sure miss communion." And over time I began to long for it in just the way you describe in your essay. So I went back. I ended up in a UCC congregation in the suburbs of Portland Oregon. And all the things that annoyed me about church are still there, and they still do.
But I get to have communion, in both literal and figurative senses. And it changes me. Now I feel a deep longing to lay down my suspicion, and God knows where THAT'S going to take me. I don't even know if I've got the guts to find out.
I hear ya on that Gen-X aversion to sap! Speaking of...maybe you’re listening to the wrong kind of worship music. Try Marvin Sapp, Kirk Franklin or even Lecrae. Totally different groove!
I believe that many of us sing to God from our soul, from his Holy Spirit within us. I believe that when we reach him in heaven, our souls and our songs will join the masses who praise God for eternity. I hope to hear voices like those of Stevie Wonder, Alanis Morissete and Andrea Bocelli. When I listen to them sing about faith I feel a connection to heaven. 🙌🏼
I confess I envy their experience to some extent. I was in a church with this kind of thing for years and never really “felt” it, even though I participated. I hope there is something good that comes from it that lasts for them. I’m intrigued by a video posted by a pastor who went to see this, in which he said that during all this the students were protecting LGBTQ+ students and having conversations with professors and other about addressing racism and other issues. It would be amazing and heartening if this brings about real institutional change.
YES! This! I read the same reports and I said a prayer...
I commented on your Facebook post earlier.
I love what you have given us here. I'm reading Richard Rohr yhese days - about deconstruction and reconstruction - and find it both humbling and helpful along with your words of.wisdom.
Even so, I'm really concerned with your choice of words in the first few sentences - "open hearted". I'm just not sure that's what's going on here.
Asbury is a leading theological voice in the exclusion of gay/lesbian/trans/bi/queer relationships and leadership in the United Methodist Church. This is most hurtful to me as an ordained Deacon in The UMC and as the mother of a queer child. I can hardly celebrate this revival knowing the mentality of the leadership on the Asbury campus. How can I?
Unless there is a surge of young faithfuls who are "opening their hearts" to all of God's creation and humanity, I'm not sure it matters what else their hearts are open to. This hurts to say and think.
But, Nadia, how can we say we love a God we can't see while hating brothers and sisters we do see? My hope is that something is happening in these young people that will stir and change the hearts of the ones who have the power there. Something that will shake the foundations of judmentalism, piousness and the idolatry of orthodoxy that has dominated here for quite some time... and masquerades as holy.
Your flag on the hill image is saving me from even worse cynicism. (are there varying degrees?) But I can't just sit here and "feel" the "spirit" knowing the harm they cause to others outside the bubble.
I posted some pretty intense thoughts a few days ago, as a United Methodist Minister in the midst of a real church split nightmare that has about made me leave ministry. The best thing I come away with in your reflections is your deep.compassion for.our total human condition and that damn white flag on the hill. I'm gonna need that image to make it with church religion. Period.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0UfjCPu8hiamSuUojJehmvFvWnbZPnsKdVzoTtPrEE2iVrqwW9H4NfJEty6u7gDyjl&id=100000185718254&mibextid=Nif5oz
Rev. Meg, I’m a former ELCA minister who recently gave up that career mainly because many church members don’t agree with the denomination’s embrace of openly LGBTQ+ people as members, pastors and bishops, its denunciation of white supremacy and support for immigrants, etc. I was also deeply disappointed by the silence of those who do agree, and oppose the Christian nationalism that is gaining ground but are afraid of causing conflict or losing members.
I too was ordained a United Methodist pastor, a graduate of both Asbury institutions. I too am disappointed with so many of the stances of the institutions. I retired early after what many would call successful pastoral ministries. The incubation of some of the worst kinds of behaviors and dispositions seemed to be in the pews feeding the very cultural attitudes leaving so many feeling alone and disregarded pandering a petty god bent on petty followers. I am acquainted with people who were part of the so called first revival on the Asbury Campus. Let's just say any skepticism around said environments are well warranted. I will end by saying I had some truly remarkable and life transforming mentors and teachers at both institutions who would decry their stance on so many issues today.