Nadia, Just wanted you to know that your blessing at the end of this episode had me ugly crying. Being a gay man raised in conservative evangelical churches, the religious trauma, shame, and guilt I felt and that was placed upon me was overwhelming, and it led to a long journey of self destruction and an even longer journey toward self love and the truth of Gods love. Thank you for being a voice of love and Grace. Please keep doing what you’re doing, we need more people like you in the world.
I was given Harris’ book as a teenager & I literally dented my bedroom wall I threw it so hard. (Somehow rejecting the book while becoming an actual poster child for purity culture itself. Well, it was less a poster & more my picture in the local paper as the town virgin... but I digress...)
Fast forward years to find me weeping my way through Shameless in my 30s as I finally began to process the harm caused by all those years. It brought a long overdue reckoning with all of the shame & toxicity I had normalized until then.
I’ve been deeply skeptical of stories regarding Harris’ alleged apology tour & avoided reading any of it. Nadia, you’re the only person I would trust to interview him in a way that would not just bring more trauma. Thank you for your direct honesty in this conversation & for holding space for the harm done without either absolving or convicting him. Thank you for holding so many of our stories near to your heart in the process.
I feel like there are a lot of parallels with human trafficking and purity culture. God owns your sexuality. There’s never any consent. There are endless false promises. Sex is overly spiritualized and weaponized and a tool of control. I shut off my sex drive and damaged myself for God, fully expecting God to give me back what I gave up after the wedding as promised. After marriage, I did whatever my spouse wanted. I laid there and took it for Jesus. I thought that God wanted me to endure those awful sessions over a 10-year marriage. From everything I had been taught, if I performed correctly for God, I would have a great sex life and guaranteed happy marriage. And here I am, victim of a domestic violence situation, divorced and shattered, none of the false promises ever coming true. There’s no fucking hope of normalcy. Some traffickers use tattoos to mark their “property.” God uses purity rings.
Purity culture runs so deep through me and I hate it. Having grown up in it, I feel so much shame. I feel the weight of purity culture when I was abused as a kid and blame myself because I was taught “women cause men to sin.” I still feel the weight of it for the guilt of my best friend and I when we were 8 playing a “sex game”. I felt the weight of it when I “acted out” in self pleasure. I am currently feeling the weight that I recently messed around and lost my virginity to a guy who raped me. All this weight makes me believe God has turned his back on me because I could not remain “pure”. I hate that word.... “pure”. I hate it but I desperately want to feel pure from God again. I hate purity culture and know so many who have been hurt by it. I don’t know how to change it. I don’t know how to challenge what I was raised to believe about Gods view on purity. I want to feel whole and like God is with me and hasn’t abandoned me because I was “impure” or no longer a “virgin”. It hurts so bad to not have anyone to turn to in my pain right now. I wish Jesus hugged.
As much as I stay away from toxic purity bullshit, it still haunts me. After years trying to be a monastic and ignore my Gay self, and now as a single, upper middle aged man, I still struggle for self acceptance. Like trying to wash of skunk ( self loathing, I mean). Thank you so much for this podcast. I am so glad to hear REAL conversions stories - ones where people who were so in deep in a pseudo Christian place who come into the light.
Joshua’s and your conversation reminded me of Theodor Adorno, who was a critical sociologist in the Frankfurt School - critical theorist. In his Minima Moralia - Finale talks about us taking a standpoint of redemption for everything. Here’s this critical theorist saying we need to have deep compassion. Blessings to you and everyone.
Cleaning the horse stall tonight while listening to this podcast I was overwhelmed with tears. I never read Joshua's book but the damage is there from the messages recieved from the church I grew up in, listening to the barely old enough to be married pastor's wife telling us how hard it was to remain pure and how we have to resist. Again when I was a little older at a woman's retreat and another pastor's wife confessed her darkest secrets of premarital sex with and wait for it - with men other than her husband and more than one! Telling us how wrong she had been and how it had harmed their relationship. I've done 10 years in therapy and years in celebrate recovery and this topic brings me to tears. All the years of religious abuse, fear of being judged, the realization that you married the first man I slept because I'd "sinned and gotten knocked up" ignoring my inner voice telling me not to marry that man. I don't think it was just this book but the whole church culture at the time. I
First of all - I’m so thankful for you Nadia! You are truly a breath of fresh air, and I do love that you fucking swear.
Man this podcast brought up memories! I think our youth group read this book (while half of us dated each other off and on...lol). My parents were super conservative and always preached that the “only way” was abstinence. I’ve always felt like a pretty sexual person, so that part of me was always the “bad side”....I wonder how my teen years/twenties (and now) would be different if I truly learned how to accept sexuality as a gift?
Also how brave of Joshua Harris to publicly speak out against his own book...that’s huge.
Such a good interview. I am hoping the sermon at the end can be transcribed. I am curious about how a 17 year old’s message resonated so quickly with the adults? Maybe it was because purity culture wasn’t really new to them….the couple at the core of this system, Jim and Elisabeth Elliot, are the original influencers on evangelical marriage and sexuality…I wish I had never read their books……
Nadia, Just wanted you to know that your blessing at the end of this episode had me ugly crying. Being a gay man raised in conservative evangelical churches, the religious trauma, shame, and guilt I felt and that was placed upon me was overwhelming, and it led to a long journey of self destruction and an even longer journey toward self love and the truth of Gods love. Thank you for being a voice of love and Grace. Please keep doing what you’re doing, we need more people like you in the world.
I was given Harris’ book as a teenager & I literally dented my bedroom wall I threw it so hard. (Somehow rejecting the book while becoming an actual poster child for purity culture itself. Well, it was less a poster & more my picture in the local paper as the town virgin... but I digress...)
Fast forward years to find me weeping my way through Shameless in my 30s as I finally began to process the harm caused by all those years. It brought a long overdue reckoning with all of the shame & toxicity I had normalized until then.
I’ve been deeply skeptical of stories regarding Harris’ alleged apology tour & avoided reading any of it. Nadia, you’re the only person I would trust to interview him in a way that would not just bring more trauma. Thank you for your direct honesty in this conversation & for holding space for the harm done without either absolving or convicting him. Thank you for holding so many of our stories near to your heart in the process.
I feel like there are a lot of parallels with human trafficking and purity culture. God owns your sexuality. There’s never any consent. There are endless false promises. Sex is overly spiritualized and weaponized and a tool of control. I shut off my sex drive and damaged myself for God, fully expecting God to give me back what I gave up after the wedding as promised. After marriage, I did whatever my spouse wanted. I laid there and took it for Jesus. I thought that God wanted me to endure those awful sessions over a 10-year marriage. From everything I had been taught, if I performed correctly for God, I would have a great sex life and guaranteed happy marriage. And here I am, victim of a domestic violence situation, divorced and shattered, none of the false promises ever coming true. There’s no fucking hope of normalcy. Some traffickers use tattoos to mark their “property.” God uses purity rings.
Purity culture runs so deep through me and I hate it. Having grown up in it, I feel so much shame. I feel the weight of purity culture when I was abused as a kid and blame myself because I was taught “women cause men to sin.” I still feel the weight of it for the guilt of my best friend and I when we were 8 playing a “sex game”. I felt the weight of it when I “acted out” in self pleasure. I am currently feeling the weight that I recently messed around and lost my virginity to a guy who raped me. All this weight makes me believe God has turned his back on me because I could not remain “pure”. I hate that word.... “pure”. I hate it but I desperately want to feel pure from God again. I hate purity culture and know so many who have been hurt by it. I don’t know how to change it. I don’t know how to challenge what I was raised to believe about Gods view on purity. I want to feel whole and like God is with me and hasn’t abandoned me because I was “impure” or no longer a “virgin”. It hurts so bad to not have anyone to turn to in my pain right now. I wish Jesus hugged.
As much as I stay away from toxic purity bullshit, it still haunts me. After years trying to be a monastic and ignore my Gay self, and now as a single, upper middle aged man, I still struggle for self acceptance. Like trying to wash of skunk ( self loathing, I mean). Thank you so much for this podcast. I am so glad to hear REAL conversions stories - ones where people who were so in deep in a pseudo Christian place who come into the light.
Joshua’s and your conversation reminded me of Theodor Adorno, who was a critical sociologist in the Frankfurt School - critical theorist. In his Minima Moralia - Finale talks about us taking a standpoint of redemption for everything. Here’s this critical theorist saying we need to have deep compassion. Blessings to you and everyone.
Cleaning the horse stall tonight while listening to this podcast I was overwhelmed with tears. I never read Joshua's book but the damage is there from the messages recieved from the church I grew up in, listening to the barely old enough to be married pastor's wife telling us how hard it was to remain pure and how we have to resist. Again when I was a little older at a woman's retreat and another pastor's wife confessed her darkest secrets of premarital sex with and wait for it - with men other than her husband and more than one! Telling us how wrong she had been and how it had harmed their relationship. I've done 10 years in therapy and years in celebrate recovery and this topic brings me to tears. All the years of religious abuse, fear of being judged, the realization that you married the first man I slept because I'd "sinned and gotten knocked up" ignoring my inner voice telling me not to marry that man. I don't think it was just this book but the whole church culture at the time. I
First of all - I’m so thankful for you Nadia! You are truly a breath of fresh air, and I do love that you fucking swear.
Man this podcast brought up memories! I think our youth group read this book (while half of us dated each other off and on...lol). My parents were super conservative and always preached that the “only way” was abstinence. I’ve always felt like a pretty sexual person, so that part of me was always the “bad side”....I wonder how my teen years/twenties (and now) would be different if I truly learned how to accept sexuality as a gift?
Also how brave of Joshua Harris to publicly speak out against his own book...that’s huge.
Such a good interview. I am hoping the sermon at the end can be transcribed. I am curious about how a 17 year old’s message resonated so quickly with the adults? Maybe it was because purity culture wasn’t really new to them….the couple at the core of this system, Jim and Elisabeth Elliot, are the original influencers on evangelical marriage and sexuality…I wish I had never read their books……