Okay, I know I’m odd, but I think the church being front and center in American life has not been for the church’s (or society’s) good. Historically, it seems to me, the church has done its very best work, actually being church, when it is on the margins of society. That’s when it spoke boldly to power for the marginalized and weak. That’s when it was a beacon of hope. I’d forfeit full pews for that.
I don’t think you’re odd; I agree 💯. Lutherans say the church should be “in, not of” the world. But, like other denominations, we often fail miserably at living out Jesus’ values when they conflict with society’s.
Yes, it is a hard line to straddle for both churches and individuals. It’s hard for me personally, because I have to survive financially in a capitalist culture that values profits more than people and teaches us from a young age that we must conform to society’s expectations to succeed and rewards those who do. My husband and I have both lost jobs because we refused to lie to customers.
U.S. society also teaches that anyone willing to work hard and do what their employer tells them to can make a good living, or at least earn enough to cover basic living expenses. Even if that was true for most citizens in the past (and I’m not convinced it was, though a higher percentage of the population was able to purchase homes, got promotions and raises, had employers who fully covered the cost of health insurance, etc), it’s definitely not true now.
It also reinforces the stereotype that people who are poor and/or unemployed are lazier, less intelligent, less responsible and therefore less valuable than wealthier people with more power over others and more impressive job titles.
Something like… I’m a stay at home mom, the bottom of the bottom of the barrel as I don’t produce anything of commodifiable (I think I just made up a word, lol) value. Actually I do, my child, but i resist as hard as I can making him a commodity.
For me, this corresponds with Diana Butler Bass’ suggestion that the next “Awakening” of the Christian tradition will be focused on belonging rather than believing (BTW, she has a Substack worthy of note). This seems similar to the Christian communities of the first two centuries: they were places of belonging, where you shared stories more than dogma. In the modern context, a person may feel s/he belongs because of the way they are treated - they feel accepted. Over time, s/he will notice the actions/behavior of a community correspond with the morals they “preach”.
I call this “integrity.” It’s a personal life-long goal that I live and love as Jesus did. To paraphrase St. Francis, my life and actions may be the only Gospel people will hear.
Well said, James! If we can still "belong" even though we don't "believe" in the entire dogma, those who have evolved out of dogmatism might still be very involved, deeply participating, as followers of Jesus, rather than just walking away from the institutional church.
My favorite quote of yours really resonates and it has for a long time with our daughters. People say they left their faith but it was really leaving a church that didn’t support their love of Jesus. ....”people don’t seem to leave the church because they no longer believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teachings. People leave the church because they believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teaching so much that they can no longer stomach being part of an institution that says it’s about that and so clearly is not. -Nadia Bolz-Weber
and this is where I have hope these days. I didn't before. But now I feel like Jesus is doing something new and different outside religion and that is good. Its just hard watching a dumpster fire.
Jake Meador's piece in The Atlantic didn't include much discussion of those people who simply outgrew the institutional church they were raised in. We often attend church with the assumption that the pastor or priest is more mature, evolved, and educated than ourselves. But many eventually realize that the leader of the congregation is ill equipped to lead because they lack maturity, wisdom, or deep insight. The church ends up reflecting the needs of the pastor more than those of the congregation. Sadly, in the Catholic church in America, the bishops seem to be profoundly immature, un-evolved, and far too focused on protecting their authority. I've met many spiritually alive people, very mature and filled with love, who hold onto Jesus' teachings, but also easily incorporate other compatible teachings into their own personal theology. These evolved people are among those who have walked away from their church. They are following Jesus' teachings, and don't feel the benefit of staying in a congregation that is not allowed to outgrow the maturity of the leadership. Nadia, what you provide me is the reminder of how beautiful the message of Jesus is when truly practiced with humility and grace. You remind us that we are Holy, and that we should treat one another as Holy and beloved by God.
I agree with you, but the reverse can also be true. I gave up my career as a pastor in 2021 mainly because I couldn’t stay silent about the obvious contradictions between the words and actions of Trump and his MAGA followers in church pews every Sunday and those of Jesus. I guess you could say January 6 was the last straw for me.
But also because I could no longer preach and teach (or just let people assume I agreed with) traditional church doctrines I don’t believe. I don’t think Jesus is the only valid way to God, that his death on the cross was necessary to satisfy God’s wrath and get Christians into heaven, or that Christians should try to get everyone else to become Christians. I also have a very different perspective on the Bible’s human authors and their limitations than many Christians are open to hearing.
Wendi, I agree with everything you just said. My question is, do you still consider yourself a Christian? I struggle with identifying myself as a Christian, as I don’t agree with many points of our man made Christian doctrine. I do, however, believe in Jesus Christ; I can’t seem to get around it!
Nadia, I am getting older. This idea of decluttering the church resonates with how I feel about life. I look at all the stuff I have amassed and I am overwhelmed by the need to declutter my home, my life. Maintaining all this stuff is hard work. It is not what I want to do in my old age.
This resonates with my feelings about the church. At my church, folks are worried about paying the mortgage, how much ministry costs, affording staff, we need more volunteers to help clean up after communion, or call on folks around town. We’ve forgotten that Jesus never had a mortgage. He didn’t have extra shoes or clothes. He relied on house to house hospitality. He offered healing and hope wherever he went. His “church” was where he met the most opposition to his generosity and love. maintaining all of our stuff is hard. If we only have 5 years (a real consideration for me), how do we want to live it? How did Jesus live his last 3 years?
I just spent a night in the wilderness with my son and his young adult friends and guides. At one point, we gathered under a tarp, sat on tree stumps and mostly listened as they shared heartfelt words, tears, songs poetry. I can hardly express the sacredness of this space. What outsiders would name a treatment program, I would name the most welcoming, honest church I have ever had the privilege of attending. We have full access to this kind of church. We are just looking in the wrong places. Jesus made it pretty clear who to look to for guidance and it was always the overlooked, the outcasts, the awkward, the burdened, the addict, the neurodivergent, the mentally unstable- the beloved.
I've been thinking about the 'future' of the church as I consider if I'm going to start attending again (or not). I answered your poll as "not currently attending". There are a lot of reasons for that, but mostly I was caring for my dying wife and then dealing with the estate. That is about 18 months behind me now so I'm asking myself - "Do I want to go back?" Essentially, I think the church needs a better story and a better focus. Like you, I see some good ministry going on (and BTW, I'm in an ELCA church). But that ministry is often not the driving focus, but more of a side-hustle by an interested few. There are, both in my congregation and writ larger, the typical questions about direction, the lack of growth etc. I particularly like your idea of decluttering. I also like the idea of a new and better story/label/activities or focus that would make people actually WANT to come to church. What about instead of being Liberal or Conservative or Progressive or Womanist or Latinx we were just Incarnational? What if we did in our churches the kinds of things we actually see reported in the Gospels in terms of care for the poor, living simply, being in community? Would an Incarnational focus be sufficient to declutter and refocus? I certainly hope so, b/c otherwise I simply can't see a reason to show up to the "same old crap" anymore.
Exactly David. First it would refocus us on actions vs beliefs (which we endlessly argue about) and it would return us to a greater engagement and sense of relevance in the world which might catch the attention of those who find us irrelevant. Finally, it.might.also scuttle those who criticize and dismiss the various necessary corrective movements within the church because change threatens their position or systems. Pretty tough to argue against something explicitly shown in the Gospels, eh?
I’ve been mulling this topic since the survey and as I read thru the comments. I first tried to see reasons or ideas that I agreed with. Then I tried to find some overarching theme, and only got as far as realizing how many different needs or wants that the church was or was not meeting. Then I simply pondered my own reasons for stopping regular attendance and what I want from church. And that was a difficult assessment. I included an internal discussion of whether I should continue my monetary support. My ideal church would be a quiet, peaceful place where I could receive the Eucharist, and have time for reflection. That’s all. The rest of my spiritual practices and community are mine to nurture and grow, and all currently occur outside of church. And money, which cannot be ignored in this discussion: I no longer want to support buildings/mortgages and large staffs devoted to the “show”.
I feel every bit of this. Thank you. I left the religion 35 years ago for lots of reasons but still feel the pull of Jesus and his gospel on a deep level. There are few voices in Christianity I can stomach or that ring true to me. Yours is one of them. Thank you again.
"We could be a people who laugh; who do not think that needing God is a failure; a people who sing unselfconsciously; a people who are unafraid of suffering and unafraid of joy." I'm not even a Christian, and I can relate to this wholeheartedly. I would like us to be a joyful people, not a grieving one.
Yes! THIS: “…people don’t seem to leave the church because they no longer believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teachings. People leave the church because they believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teaching so much that they can no longer stomach being part of an institution that says it’s about that and so CLEARLY is not.” You captured my heart.
I mos def get annoyed that most churches meet on Sunday mornings! This may or may not however be yet another excuse why I do not go to church. I go to AA meetings however, and this suffices as church for me.
I was thinking at 3AM this morning about the survey I answered yesterday. I don't like going to church these days. Then I remembered I would attend this outdoor church in Cave Creek, AZ north of Phoenix. Church of the Chip, Chip is the Saloon in front. We met behind the bar and it was covered so if it rained we didn't get wet. I've been there in the cold and in perfect weather. The minister wears a cowboy hat and boots, plays the guitar, sings (sometimes during the sermon) and there's about 50 people there. I might not always agree with all his preaching but he does push God's love and I'm always in for that. It's a warm group and no one is too concerned with what everyone believes. They do outreach and try to take care of each other. That's a church I think I could attend regularly.
Okay, I know I’m odd, but I think the church being front and center in American life has not been for the church’s (or society’s) good. Historically, it seems to me, the church has done its very best work, actually being church, when it is on the margins of society. That’s when it spoke boldly to power for the marginalized and weak. That’s when it was a beacon of hope. I’d forfeit full pews for that.
I don’t think you’re odd; I agree 💯. Lutherans say the church should be “in, not of” the world. But, like other denominations, we often fail miserably at living out Jesus’ values when they conflict with society’s.
Catholics say this too. It’s a hard line to straddle.
Yes, it is a hard line to straddle for both churches and individuals. It’s hard for me personally, because I have to survive financially in a capitalist culture that values profits more than people and teaches us from a young age that we must conform to society’s expectations to succeed and rewards those who do. My husband and I have both lost jobs because we refused to lie to customers.
U.S. society also teaches that anyone willing to work hard and do what their employer tells them to can make a good living, or at least earn enough to cover basic living expenses. Even if that was true for most citizens in the past (and I’m not convinced it was, though a higher percentage of the population was able to purchase homes, got promotions and raises, had employers who fully covered the cost of health insurance, etc), it’s definitely not true now.
It also reinforces the stereotype that people who are poor and/or unemployed are lazier, less intelligent, less responsible and therefore less valuable than wealthier people with more power over others and more impressive job titles.
Something like… I’m a stay at home mom, the bottom of the bottom of the barrel as I don’t produce anything of commodifiable (I think I just made up a word, lol) value. Actually I do, my child, but i resist as hard as I can making him a commodity.
For me, this corresponds with Diana Butler Bass’ suggestion that the next “Awakening” of the Christian tradition will be focused on belonging rather than believing (BTW, she has a Substack worthy of note). This seems similar to the Christian communities of the first two centuries: they were places of belonging, where you shared stories more than dogma. In the modern context, a person may feel s/he belongs because of the way they are treated - they feel accepted. Over time, s/he will notice the actions/behavior of a community correspond with the morals they “preach”.
I call this “integrity.” It’s a personal life-long goal that I live and love as Jesus did. To paraphrase St. Francis, my life and actions may be the only Gospel people will hear.
Well said, James! If we can still "belong" even though we don't "believe" in the entire dogma, those who have evolved out of dogmatism might still be very involved, deeply participating, as followers of Jesus, rather than just walking away from the institutional church.
My favorite quote of yours really resonates and it has for a long time with our daughters. People say they left their faith but it was really leaving a church that didn’t support their love of Jesus. ....”people don’t seem to leave the church because they no longer believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teachings. People leave the church because they believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teaching so much that they can no longer stomach being part of an institution that says it’s about that and so clearly is not. -Nadia Bolz-Weber
My favorite too, Ruth. That is the core issue.
and this is where I have hope these days. I didn't before. But now I feel like Jesus is doing something new and different outside religion and that is good. Its just hard watching a dumpster fire.
Jake Meador's piece in The Atlantic didn't include much discussion of those people who simply outgrew the institutional church they were raised in. We often attend church with the assumption that the pastor or priest is more mature, evolved, and educated than ourselves. But many eventually realize that the leader of the congregation is ill equipped to lead because they lack maturity, wisdom, or deep insight. The church ends up reflecting the needs of the pastor more than those of the congregation. Sadly, in the Catholic church in America, the bishops seem to be profoundly immature, un-evolved, and far too focused on protecting their authority. I've met many spiritually alive people, very mature and filled with love, who hold onto Jesus' teachings, but also easily incorporate other compatible teachings into their own personal theology. These evolved people are among those who have walked away from their church. They are following Jesus' teachings, and don't feel the benefit of staying in a congregation that is not allowed to outgrow the maturity of the leadership. Nadia, what you provide me is the reminder of how beautiful the message of Jesus is when truly practiced with humility and grace. You remind us that we are Holy, and that we should treat one another as Holy and beloved by God.
I agree with you, but the reverse can also be true. I gave up my career as a pastor in 2021 mainly because I couldn’t stay silent about the obvious contradictions between the words and actions of Trump and his MAGA followers in church pews every Sunday and those of Jesus. I guess you could say January 6 was the last straw for me.
But also because I could no longer preach and teach (or just let people assume I agreed with) traditional church doctrines I don’t believe. I don’t think Jesus is the only valid way to God, that his death on the cross was necessary to satisfy God’s wrath and get Christians into heaven, or that Christians should try to get everyone else to become Christians. I also have a very different perspective on the Bible’s human authors and their limitations than many Christians are open to hearing.
Wendi, I agree with everything you just said. My question is, do you still consider yourself a Christian? I struggle with identifying myself as a Christian, as I don’t agree with many points of our man made Christian doctrine. I do, however, believe in Jesus Christ; I can’t seem to get around it!
I have the same struggle and for now consider myself a Christian but may not for much longer. I have mixed feelings about whether I still qualify as a Christian or want to. I just published an article yesterday that explores that issue further: https://medium.com/backyard-theology/is-it-easier-or-harder-to-follow-jesus-if-youre-a-christian-350d7dface4f?sk=8b598df20f5c462afc098be6f603d799
Thank you for sharing your article. I’m glad that you have a church community right now, and I have been meaning to read Brian’s book.
Nadia, I am getting older. This idea of decluttering the church resonates with how I feel about life. I look at all the stuff I have amassed and I am overwhelmed by the need to declutter my home, my life. Maintaining all this stuff is hard work. It is not what I want to do in my old age.
This resonates with my feelings about the church. At my church, folks are worried about paying the mortgage, how much ministry costs, affording staff, we need more volunteers to help clean up after communion, or call on folks around town. We’ve forgotten that Jesus never had a mortgage. He didn’t have extra shoes or clothes. He relied on house to house hospitality. He offered healing and hope wherever he went. His “church” was where he met the most opposition to his generosity and love. maintaining all of our stuff is hard. If we only have 5 years (a real consideration for me), how do we want to live it? How did Jesus live his last 3 years?
Declutter! Party! Hug! Laugh! Share!
I just spent a night in the wilderness with my son and his young adult friends and guides. At one point, we gathered under a tarp, sat on tree stumps and mostly listened as they shared heartfelt words, tears, songs poetry. I can hardly express the sacredness of this space. What outsiders would name a treatment program, I would name the most welcoming, honest church I have ever had the privilege of attending. We have full access to this kind of church. We are just looking in the wrong places. Jesus made it pretty clear who to look to for guidance and it was always the overlooked, the outcasts, the awkward, the burdened, the addict, the neurodivergent, the mentally unstable- the beloved.
I've been thinking about the 'future' of the church as I consider if I'm going to start attending again (or not). I answered your poll as "not currently attending". There are a lot of reasons for that, but mostly I was caring for my dying wife and then dealing with the estate. That is about 18 months behind me now so I'm asking myself - "Do I want to go back?" Essentially, I think the church needs a better story and a better focus. Like you, I see some good ministry going on (and BTW, I'm in an ELCA church). But that ministry is often not the driving focus, but more of a side-hustle by an interested few. There are, both in my congregation and writ larger, the typical questions about direction, the lack of growth etc. I particularly like your idea of decluttering. I also like the idea of a new and better story/label/activities or focus that would make people actually WANT to come to church. What about instead of being Liberal or Conservative or Progressive or Womanist or Latinx we were just Incarnational? What if we did in our churches the kinds of things we actually see reported in the Gospels in terms of care for the poor, living simply, being in community? Would an Incarnational focus be sufficient to declutter and refocus? I certainly hope so, b/c otherwise I simply can't see a reason to show up to the "same old crap" anymore.
Great contribution to the discussion, Jim! What if we were "Incarnational", BE the Body of Christ in action.
Exactly David. First it would refocus us on actions vs beliefs (which we endlessly argue about) and it would return us to a greater engagement and sense of relevance in the world which might catch the attention of those who find us irrelevant. Finally, it.might.also scuttle those who criticize and dismiss the various necessary corrective movements within the church because change threatens their position or systems. Pretty tough to argue against something explicitly shown in the Gospels, eh?
I’ve been mulling this topic since the survey and as I read thru the comments. I first tried to see reasons or ideas that I agreed with. Then I tried to find some overarching theme, and only got as far as realizing how many different needs or wants that the church was or was not meeting. Then I simply pondered my own reasons for stopping regular attendance and what I want from church. And that was a difficult assessment. I included an internal discussion of whether I should continue my monetary support. My ideal church would be a quiet, peaceful place where I could receive the Eucharist, and have time for reflection. That’s all. The rest of my spiritual practices and community are mine to nurture and grow, and all currently occur outside of church. And money, which cannot be ignored in this discussion: I no longer want to support buildings/mortgages and large staffs devoted to the “show”.
This might be my favorite thing that you've ever written. If I weren't sitting at my desk in a public office I might have stood up and cheered.
I feel every bit of this. Thank you. I left the religion 35 years ago for lots of reasons but still feel the pull of Jesus and his gospel on a deep level. There are few voices in Christianity I can stomach or that ring true to me. Yours is one of them. Thank you again.
"We could be a people who laugh; who do not think that needing God is a failure; a people who sing unselfconsciously; a people who are unafraid of suffering and unafraid of joy." I'm not even a Christian, and I can relate to this wholeheartedly. I would like us to be a joyful people, not a grieving one.
Pastor, thank you simply thank you
Yes! THIS: “…people don’t seem to leave the church because they no longer believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teachings. People leave the church because they believe in the beauty of Jesus and his teaching so much that they can no longer stomach being part of an institution that says it’s about that and so CLEARLY is not.” You captured my heart.
Dear Nadia,
I mos def get annoyed that most churches meet on Sunday mornings! This may or may not however be yet another excuse why I do not go to church. I go to AA meetings however, and this suffices as church for me.
Love,
Kat
Yes!
As a german catholic I feel every word of this. We are getting choked by all the clutter
I was thinking at 3AM this morning about the survey I answered yesterday. I don't like going to church these days. Then I remembered I would attend this outdoor church in Cave Creek, AZ north of Phoenix. Church of the Chip, Chip is the Saloon in front. We met behind the bar and it was covered so if it rained we didn't get wet. I've been there in the cold and in perfect weather. The minister wears a cowboy hat and boots, plays the guitar, sings (sometimes during the sermon) and there's about 50 people there. I might not always agree with all his preaching but he does push God's love and I'm always in for that. It's a warm group and no one is too concerned with what everyone believes. They do outreach and try to take care of each other. That's a church I think I could attend regularly.